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[Music]

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school

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my name is leah prime and i'll be your

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host tonight facilitating conversation

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with the other faculty members

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so the invisible night school is a small

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consortium of lay researchers and

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scholars analytically exploring ufos

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uap's high strangeness and the cultural

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and social implications of the

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phenomenon

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you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com

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we also have a public discord which is

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linked in the video description we'd

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love if you'd come join us

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so

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without any further delay let's welcome

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we have nick coffincollis

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luis cayetano

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and campbell moreira

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hi

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all right looks like we're having an

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issue with nick here nick i'm gonna

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remove you real quick and then re-add

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nick we can't see you bud but can we

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hear you

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hello

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oh we can't hear him

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yeah we can hear him

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i can see myself that's odd

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let me

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hear you yeah go ahead and reset things

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this is our premiere live stream so uh

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we're kind of building this plane as

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we're flying it and i definitely expect

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that there's going to be a little bit of

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a learning curve

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am i here yet

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we can still hear you but cannot see you

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it may have to do with the background

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that you're trying to use or something

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like that all right we'll let him rejoin

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um so while we wait for nick to come

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back

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good evening luis

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campbell

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um oh and here we go here's nick nick

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welcome back

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oh it's working it works yeah okay we

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see you now

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fantastic

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so

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um good evening

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and uh where shall we begin tonight

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there's been a lot going on

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well ufo twitter is always a good place

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to start

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yeah it really is the hub i think before

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this uh calvin photo was released

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everybody was up in arms about um

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mick west retweeting gideon's article

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about uh aerial school yes that was

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pretty interesting he proposed a

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traveling puppet troupe i think that

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they may have seen

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anybody see that or actually see the uh

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the reactionary outrage to

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tweeting

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the response was incredible because it

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felt like people were incapable of

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understanding that he wasn't endorsing

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this idea but he was really making a

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larger point about probabilities of

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reality right he's not saying oh it's

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definitely a puppet show he's saying

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that in the scheme of probability here

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that is a more likely encounter to have

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than you know actual ufos or aliens um

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and it feels like that ultra like that

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ultra knee-jerk response to it was just

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a complete failure to

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absorb except yeah somebody was saying

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like this isn't super abstract it didn't

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strike me as super abstract that tweet

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was kind of a reading comprehension test

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it seems to me

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sorry i'm not going to throw shade right

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away

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but

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you know it was an interesting idea um

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and we're seeing like a lot of ideas

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come out right now now that the calvin

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photos dropped too

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and i think people should realize that

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yeah we're

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we're exploring different options these

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are unresolved cases right so

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why not have an open mind as they often

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could proclaim and take a look at all

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options i don't necessarily think that

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those kids stop i don't think they saw

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anything out of the ordinary really

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personally and i i'm not a big uh

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proponent of that case either though

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did you guys see that

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yeah yeah i saw that and um i agree

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entirely with what you said leah like i

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think that it was entirely

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like mick trying to present somebody

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else's point that

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almost anything's more likely than

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aliens and that's it's just a fact and

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so like

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i think that there's a problem where

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there there's a legitimate

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hypothesis that is not human

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intelligence that's a viable hypothesis

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and that should be considered but

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there's an issue where when

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it gets countered there's an emotional

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response instead of actually just

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bringing the facts and supporting the

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argument and i think that that really

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was emphasized in the emotional reaction

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in the community

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yeah it um for me what it brings up is

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uh sort of going back to conversations

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we've had about standards of evidence

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right like

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this is an enormous subject

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and

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when you think about what demonstrates

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proof or what doesn't demonstrate proof

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to me it feels like there should be

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evidence that is effectively airtight

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right like it shouldn't be evidence that

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is constantly or continually footnoted

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with circumstances or blurry pictures or

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eyewitness reports from people that

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maybe don't have the best reputation

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instead like you want something that's

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going to be airtight and i feel like to

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accept anything less than that is to

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fail to give the subject the respect

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both intellectually and culturally that

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it deserves

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yeah i see a lot of reactions where

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they seem to be coming from the point

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where et is the default

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uh kind of a kind of a reverse burden of

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proof situation happening

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it's really strange for me it reminds me

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of the god of the gaps stuff and like

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the new atheist movement that you used

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to hear that like any phenomenon that

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you couldn't directly attribute to

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science um or measurement you

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automatically had to assume that it was

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god and i think that's one of the more

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troubling things i see in this community

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right is that like there's gaps in our

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scientific understanding and our

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experience in the world and to just kind

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of like spackle in all those spaces with

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oh it's got to be ufos it's got to be

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aliens feels like a really

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intellectually lazy um and disingenuous

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approach to something that's you know

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naturally very complex

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it's kind of interesting to me because

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we have all these like

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kind of realms of the unknown and fear

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so we have like outer space the bottom

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of the ocean the middle of the jungles

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and death

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and all the all these things are just

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envoys of that right we have ghosts the

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envoys of death and we have aliens

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coming down from space and they're all

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they all kind of originate from these

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like

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centers of fear of the unknown

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right and we've kind of uh personified

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them like

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humans do

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you know you put a face you put a

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a personality to things like even pets

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or even inanimate things you know we all

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have that tendency to see faces in front

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of cars and just personify everything

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people talking to their cats and

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expecting them to behave in certain ways

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when that's not another human they're

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not like us but we we project that onto

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them and i kind of see

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all of fringe kind of doing that with

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our uh with our unknowns

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[Music]

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not with consciousness

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yeah true anything we don't understand

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we kind of

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create a little man that comes out of it

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louise have you uh studied the aerial

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school case

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yeah yeah yeah what are your thoughts on

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it overall

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i think it's very interesting

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psychosocial

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event

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um

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definitely don't think there was an

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alien involved or anything like that but

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i think it's still very interesting

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because

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you still have to explain like how do

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you

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get that many people

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you know having an experience

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a shared experience and i think there's

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a lot there to

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potentially learn about how groups

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like how experiences maybe are triggered

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in other people if you're part of a

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group like

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i mean we already kind of know that from

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well you know like nazi germany there

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were all these gigantic rallies where

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people

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reported um

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feeling like they were part of a hole

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right and so those sorts of things where

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you've got like a lot of people involved

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people assume that just because there's

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in different individuals involved that

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therefore there had to be some

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extraneous um yeah you know

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extraordinary event but there really

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didn't have to be

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the thing with um groups too is you know

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how you guys know how stage hypnosis

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works it kind of uh plays on both the

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aspect of like the desire to acclimate

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plus uh

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the people-pleasing tendencies people

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naturally have

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and i feel like that especially with

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little kids is gonna and not to mention

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the time that took place between all

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their questioning

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i feel like they getting together in

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groups and going along with the

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narrative and that narrative becomes

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finer and finer not to mention when you

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add in the basically interrogation of

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the kids eventually where uh they were

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asked to presume the intentions of the

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alien at that point i'd like that

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narrative was just

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formed you know what i mean by by like a

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multitude of factors i think but

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it really

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i don't know you take you take a great i

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posted that uh

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that story my sixth grade camping story

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on my twitter

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yes

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really problematic looking back on it

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this was

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1993 1994. sure

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yeah everybody believed that

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and but i mean that was uh that was

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pretty up close and stuff like that and

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we were all but we all talked about it

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you know we went back to the uh the uh

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the big rooms and stuff like that we

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were sleeping and we were all talking

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about it and it just grew and grew and

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grew

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and that was you know a small

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a small little event and we weren't you

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know interviewed or interrogated after

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it i can only imagine what those kids

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would have said my classmates would have

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said if they were interviewed on the

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news or by a ufologist afterwards you

287
00:09:57,509 --> 00:09:56,720
know what i mean

288
00:09:59,110 --> 00:09:57,519
so

289
00:10:00,710 --> 00:09:59,120
there's a lot of factors pulling those

290
00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:00,720
kids and pulling that narrative to fit

291
00:10:05,030 --> 00:10:01,920
certain molds

292
00:10:06,710 --> 00:10:05,040
out of those kids over the i think took

293
00:10:09,910 --> 00:10:06,720
place over months when they're being

294
00:10:13,590 --> 00:10:09,920
requested refilmed and all that stuff

295
00:10:15,910 --> 00:10:13,600
i mean right it really draws upon

296
00:10:17,430 --> 00:10:15,920
really how human beings create like

297
00:10:19,110 --> 00:10:17,440
build

298
00:10:20,550 --> 00:10:19,120
collaboratively and collectively world

299
00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:20,560
build

300
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:23,200
and create myths and

301
00:10:27,509 --> 00:10:25,920
shared realities between

302
00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:27,519
themselves especially when encountering

303
00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:29,920
something that may be outside the normal

304
00:10:38,069 --> 00:10:35,590
and i think when we talk about the

305
00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:38,079
aerial school there's also this i don't

306
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:40,560
want to call it social coercion exactly

307
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,399
but once you've sort of bought into this

308
00:10:46,949 --> 00:10:44,880
shared vision going against that grain

309
00:10:48,389 --> 00:10:46,959
like that's in a lot of ways especially

310
00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:48,399
for these adults now who went through

311
00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:50,560
this that's an ego destroying experience

312
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:51,839
that's an essential part of their

313
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:53,920
identity that was formed during you know

314
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:55,680
probably the most neuroplastic period of

315
00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:57,760
their lives and it's been an essential

316
00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:00,480
part of their identity as they grow um

317
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:02,320
and like this goes back

318
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:03,440
i i

319
00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:05,120
it almost reminds me of like com

320
00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:08,160
arguments about like bob lazar or um you

321
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:09,200
know

322
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:11,760
servo or anything where you have this

323
00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:15,279
really you have this blending of truth

324
00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:17,279
and real where at a certain point like

325
00:11:21,190 --> 00:11:18,959
what actually happened is almost a

326
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:21,200
material because it winds up so woven

327
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:24,800
into this grand mythology um that is

328
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:26,800
sort of collectively imagined by the

329
00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:29,279
community or by experiencers

330
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:31,360
and frequently like that experience it

331
00:11:36,430 --> 00:11:34,079
flies in the face of sort of um i would

332
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:36,440
say like material reality or the

333
00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:38,640
phenomenological world

334
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:40,160
well that's something that i've picked

335
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:42,399
up on and when i first started taking a

336
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,120
look at ufo cases

337
00:11:49,829 --> 00:11:47,600
i was uh talking to experiencers and

338
00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:49,839
believers through reddit on twitter and

339
00:11:55,829 --> 00:11:53,120
stuff and i was honestly quite

340
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:55,839
ultimately disappointed to see the

341
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:57,519
difference when somebody would like

342
00:12:01,910 --> 00:11:59,680
explain the aerial case to me like

343
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:01,920
one-on-one and it would sound so

344
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:04,079
incredible be like hundreds of kids this

345
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,920
and that and then i would look into the

346
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:07,680
details and it's like

347
00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:09,440
mufon director cynthia hein went like

348
00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:11,120
two days later there had been a

349
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,800
satellite reentry or whatever the

350
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:14,880
previous days it was in the news that

351
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:16,639
alien stuff was in the news these were

352
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:19,040
mostly like diplomats children and like

353
00:12:22,629 --> 00:12:20,480
wealthy people there was like a tennis

354
00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:22,639
court and all this stuff and like when

355
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:23,600
when the

356
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,079
facts are getting like changed to

357
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:27,680
support it and then when you go in and

358
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:29,200
you actually look at it and you're like

359
00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:31,279
trying to talk to the person being like

360
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:32,720
well this is says like quite

361
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:34,000
definitively it's different than what

362
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:36,800
you just said and then it's like i'm

363
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,720
like offending the experiencers by like

364
00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:42,399
just trying to get at what actually

365
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:44,800
happened and that's part of it that

366
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:46,560
like i'm disappointed by that whole

367
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:47,920
aspect of this because i think the cases

368
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,360
are really cool and i would love to

369
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:51,680
actually like dig into the details but

370
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:54,480
i find that's very challenging

371
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:56,560
like from an emotional side of things

372
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:58,079
that's right

373
00:13:02,389 --> 00:13:00,639
underlying symbolic um truth of the case

374
00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:02,399
might be more important than the literal

375
00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:03,279
truth

376
00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:04,480
exactly

377
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:06,160
halperin and others have written about

378
00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:08,639
how the kids might have um

379
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:11,760
been seeing something which was

380
00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:13,839
well i mean there's like an ecological

381
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:15,760
message that the the supposed aliens

382
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:18,480
were transmitting to the children and

383
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:21,760
stuff like that um the ways of relating

384
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:24,880
to the world which are often embodied

385
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:27,519
or like um encoded in the ufo experience

386
00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:30,079
and that's more interesting i think than

387
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:32,720
than even if it was aliens

388
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:35,040
oh for sure yeah i mean i think look

389
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:38,160
what we're kind of talking about is uh

390
00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:39,360
you know in religion what you'd call

391
00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:41,519
redaction right like this process of

392
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,120
sort of transmuting

393
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:45,519
the nuance of experience into whatever

394
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:47,680
the prevailing cultural or theological

395
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,320
or social frameworks exist at the time

396
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,800
and i think that you know given the time

397
00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:54,480
like the literal chronological time of

398
00:13:58,389 --> 00:13:56,560
the aerial experience it makes sense

399
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:58,399
that it would be passed through you know

400
00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:01,279
things or concerns around like ecology

401
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,920
i also think too about you know

402
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,760
at the end of the day our brains and our

403
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:07,600
memories aren't very good at discerning

404
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:10,240
um between consumed media or like

405
00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:12,160
implanted memories implanted memories

406
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:14,639
quote unquote um and direct lived

407
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,560
experience and so

408
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:18,240
i think there's also something to be

409
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:20,320
said for

410
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,320
you know going through the process of

411
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:24,000
working with mac talking to other

412
00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:25,519
students going through sort of the media

413
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:27,360
barrage that this in and of itself

414
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:29,279
creates an internal truth or frame of

415
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:31,519
reference for those kids and for the

416
00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:34,399
adults um that uh

417
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:37,360
sort of transmutes into the the ufo

418
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:39,760
thesis or the alien extraterrestrial

419
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,120
thesis

420
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:43,680
i'm not wrong i think hind in her book

421
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:45,279
was trying to make the claim that these

422
00:14:50,949 --> 00:14:48,079
kids were kind of isolated from the

423
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:50,959
kind of visit based idea concept of ufos

424
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:52,959
but that wasn't true at all

425
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:55,360
that's my understanding but yeah i think

426
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:56,880
she made direct claims that like these

427
00:15:02,230 --> 00:14:58,560
kids have never heard of flying saucers

428
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,240
or ufos they don't have access to tvs

429
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:04,800
that's like such a western idea too

430
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,720
about what africa must be like right

431
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,639
like like oh it's it's people living out

432
00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:10,399
in the bush without running water or

433
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:12,000
electricity but the reality is that they

434
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:13,680
were in a pretty i understanding a

435
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:16,160
fairly affluent well-educated area and

436
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,519
certainly would have had access to

437
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,519
western media and resources like that's

438
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:21,600
not even a question not to mention the

439
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,760
ufo mania that was had that just started

440
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,680
the day before like i think a lot of

441
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:27,680
people called in that that uh that

442
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:28,959
russian

443
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:29,920
uh

444
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:31,600
what was it campbell i thought it was a

445
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:33,759
satellite re-entry event uh it may have

446
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:35,680
just been a meteor as well i can't

447
00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:38,079
recall or was it a booster potentially

448
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:38,800
yeah

449
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,040
event was it did spawn like a flurry of

450
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:45,279
ufo sightings and i'm assuming

451
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:47,680
a lot of accompanying um

452
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:49,279
news footage and media and stuff like

453
00:15:53,910 --> 00:15:50,800
that so

454
00:15:55,509 --> 00:15:53,920
it was on people's minds that next day i

455
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,519
think uh there's actually two or three

456
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:57,360
girls that were talking about how they

457
00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:58,079
saw

458
00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:00,480
a ufo the day before and

459
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,920
the one girl who's being interviewed

460
00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:03,440
thought it was a plane at first but her

461
00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:05,519
friends said no no it's ufo and she said

462
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:07,600
oh okay it's a ufo and kind of went

463
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:10,399
along with it which kind of is like a

464
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:12,639
smaller version of what i think happened

465
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:14,160
well that's very interesting too

466
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:16,079
especially in reference to something

467
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,720
like the nimitz event where um you know

468
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:21,279
steve long made that uh post a while ago

469
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:23,759
about how alex dietrich originally

470
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:25,759
thought it was a missile and it was only

471
00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:27,519
after talking to

472
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:29,440
fravor back at base who was her

473
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:31,279
commanding officer and the leader of

474
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:33,199
like one of the most preeminent

475
00:16:38,069 --> 00:16:35,839
squadrons in the navy said like oh no i

476
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:38,079
saw it different and then it sort of

477
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:40,720
changed so like those those

478
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:43,680
in-group type factors where if like your

479
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:44,880
brain

480
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:47,600
adaptively prioritizes maintaining

481
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:49,440
social connections over information

482
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:51,199
content a lot of the time

483
00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:53,040
and like you know a lot of these things

484
00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:55,279
are perfect examples of that

485
00:16:59,189 --> 00:16:58,160
one thing about the ariel if i may

486
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:59,199
um

487
00:17:01,829 --> 00:17:00,160
is that

488
00:17:03,749 --> 00:17:01,839
and halperin mentions this as well in

489
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:03,759
his article um

490
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:04,640
that

491
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:08,480
there was

492
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:10,319
increasing

493
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,039
political and racial strife and

494
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:15,199
the ufo experience

495
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:18,000
it was witnessed by white and also black

496
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,439
and other children

497
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:21,520
so there's like a racial mix so it might

498
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,880
have been like a way of unifying the

499
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:24,880
children um

500
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:27,439
in anticipation of like increasing

501
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,679
political division

502
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:31,600
oh that's that's really interesting

503
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:33,120
because you really see it in parallels

504
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:35,280
now right where you hear ufos and uaps

505
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:36,880
being described as sort of the last

506
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:38,880
frontier of bipartisan issues that it's

507
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:40,400
non-political

508
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:41,280
um

509
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:42,960
which is

510
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,720
is that it resonates in 2022

511
00:17:52,630 --> 00:17:48,240
yeah

512
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:52,640
noticed that there's i think two more

513
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:55,039
specials coming out on fox news or uh

514
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:56,799
fox nation i believe

515
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:59,360
um covering cattle mutilation tucker i

516
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:01,760
saw that odd yeah cattle mutilation that

517
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:04,080
would be interesting

518
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:06,720
[\h__\h] i saw the ad on uh

519
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,440
i honestly uh i'm a progressive but i

520
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,520
actually read fox news regularly so to

521
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,760
see what's going on and uh i've been

522
00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:15,600
seeing the ads on fox news over and over

523
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:18,320
and it's like thousands of uh mutilated

524
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:20,640
bodies uh fully disemboweled

525
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:22,960
and it's one of these things again where

526
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:24,880
it's like i wish that it would just get

527
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:27,360
down to the like the pure reality of it

528
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:29,520
because i feel that they like they

529
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:32,240
weaken their own cases often by

530
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:34,480
expanding it beyond the the reality of

531
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:36,000
it like i was describing with ariel and

532
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:37,039
it's like

533
00:18:42,549 --> 00:18:39,440
just give the basic facts and like let's

534
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:42,559
get into it like if it's like gary nolan

535
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:45,120
on lex friedman's show said that aerial

536
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:47,360
school is in his view the strongest

537
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:49,840
evidence that you know ufos are

538
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:52,640
something extraordinary and uh

539
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,360
he then presented a a synopsis of the

540
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:56,880
case that is sort of consistent with

541
00:19:00,150 --> 00:18:58,400
what i was describing earlier where it's

542
00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:00,160
like you know i can't remember the exact

543
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:02,000
wording but it was like hundreds of kids

544
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:03,600
saw this thing that this happened and

545
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:05,360
they all saw the same type of thing and

546
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,720
it's like that's not how it went down

547
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,160
let's just be consistent with the

548
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:10,799
reality of it i'm confused as to how he

549
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:12,960
could claim that that is evidence of

550
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:15,200
anything it's still just kids telling a

551
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:17,919
story like how do you how do you falsify

552
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:20,320
that in any way he says in the interview

553
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:22,720
kids don't lie like that and that struck

554
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:24,320
me as such a strange statement because

555
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:26,720
he's been intelligent children like well

556
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:28,880
that's a great question we fly all the

557
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:32,000
time i have a kid she lies constantly i

558
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:33,360
used to lie all the time when i was a

559
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:34,080
kid

560
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:40,310
or maybe we're just we're just an

561
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:43,600
incredible quartet of degenerates here

562
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:44,320
from

563
00:19:47,870 --> 00:19:46,240
deceiving everyone around us only

564
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:47,880
skeptics are growing up like

565
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:49,440
[Laughter]

566
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:51,760
well i i hear that claim or i used to

567
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:54,240
hear that claim a lot in the um

568
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:55,760
in the ghost hunting community too

569
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:57,280
because you get a lot of cases where the

570
00:20:01,510 --> 00:19:59,280
kid sees something in the corner that

571
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:01,520
the parents can't see and children are

572
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:03,679
more in tune with things like they often

573
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:06,480
say animals are too um

574
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:08,320
no no that's not the case kids make

575
00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:11,120
crack up they imagine things

576
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,720
yeah they're exploring reality like

577
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:14,320
trying to discern what they can get away

578
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:16,880
with what is real what isn't like yeah

579
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:18,400
that's normal yeah they're in the

580
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:20,320
process of world building right like

581
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:21,760
building out the mental models for how

582
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:24,000
they interpret reality and also uh i

583
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,840
mean honestly like it's not until you're

584
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:28,080
pretty progressed that you even have a

585
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:30,159
sense that other people experience

586
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,080
reality i mean candidly like some people

587
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,400
never really ever reach that point but

588
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:35,760
in theory you're supposed to reach that

589
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:37,760
point sometime around adolescence you

590
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:39,120
know rather than assuming you're the

591
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:40,559
only person who has a depth and

592
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,159
sophistication of consciousness

593
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,120
everybody does what happens when you

594
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:47,760
base everything solely on like your own

595
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:50,080
input so that comment i always make to

596
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:52,240
people like if you judge everything by

597
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:54,000
like i know what i saw in my own

598
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,360
personal experiences you'll end up

599
00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:57,200
thinking the world is flat because you

600
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:58,720
don't have that common consensus that

601
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,960
you're drawing on you know

602
00:21:04,149 --> 00:21:02,480
it's not

603
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:04,159
it's a good it's a good tool your

604
00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:06,480
observations but you know

605
00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:08,640
be open

606
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:10,880
right yeah it comes to that having a

607
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:11,919
well

608
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:13,919
honed or robust

609
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:17,120
meta model for how you understand and

610
00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:19,120
interpret the limits of your own

611
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:20,960
knowledge and at what point you actually

612
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:23,840
start deferring to additional expertise

613
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,919
to supplant uh

614
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:27,840
your your basically your thinking for

615
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:29,600
you right and how people do this and i

616
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:32,080
think look i mean it like personal

617
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:34,000
feelings about gary nolan aside like we

618
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:35,440
see this in action where there's this

619
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,039
assumption that because he possesses

620
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:39,600
particular academic credentials works in

621
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:42,159
particular areas that his expertise and

622
00:21:46,149 --> 00:21:44,240
let me be very clear his expertise in

623
00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:46,159
his field of study is exemplary it's

624
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,080
really incredible it's not throwing

625
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:49,919
shade here but that doesn't necessarily

626
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:52,240
mean that it transfers to other things

627
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:54,880
you know and and i think having a strong

628
00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:56,240
understanding of the limits of your own

629
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:57,840
knowledge and being very honest about

630
00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:00,000
those limits is an essential part of

631
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:02,080
being both a responsible thinker and a

632
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:07,830
absolutely

633
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:10,000
like uh like what do you guys make of uh

634
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,120
like dr nolan's uh relationship long

635
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:15,200
term with this whole crew because he

636
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:18,080
seems to be like embedded with like like

637
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:21,280
nose put off knows um valet and all that

638
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,799
stuff like does anybody know his

639
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:24,159
backstory

640
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:25,200
nothing

641
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:27,520
so so i'm taking a class right now with

642
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:30,880
dr diana pasulka out of unc uh i think

643
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:33,039
wilmington um

644
00:22:37,029 --> 00:22:35,039
and dr nolan was a guest in one of the

645
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:37,039
early classes and it was a really great

646
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:38,720
conversation it was a very technical

647
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:40,400
conversation because he responded to

648
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:42,159
questions from students in the class and

649
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:43,280
the students had clearly done their

650
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:45,840
homework but he made a very off-the-cuff

651
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:48,320
comment at one point

652
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,400
where he was discussing psychedelics and

653
00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:52,240
he said something and i'm paraphrasing

654
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:53,919
here but he said something like look i'm

655
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,919
61 i've never done psychedelics but um

656
00:23:02,549 --> 00:22:59,919
if i'm going to i need to do it soon

657
00:23:05,590 --> 00:23:02,559
before circumstances changed and there

658
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:05,600
was some subtext there that like he's

659
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,520
looking at or maybe getting in bed with

660
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:09,120
some of the federal work right because

661
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,799
that would definitely preclude you from

662
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:12,320
you know any sort of psychonautic

663
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:13,520
adventures

664
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:15,760
um but yeah i mean he's totally built

665
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:17,600
into this fabric of the preeminent

666
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:20,080
thinkers in this space you know for real

667
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:21,440
and he's also one of these emerging

668
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:23,039
figures like valet

669
00:23:26,789 --> 00:23:24,880
you know ushered in i think sort of the

670
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:26,799
contemporary model or image of what a

671
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:29,039
scholar is in this space but jacques

672
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:32,640
valet is um you know he's older and the

673
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:34,480
the torch will be passed to subsequent

674
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:36,159
academics and scholars and i think gary

675
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:38,880
nolan and dr pasulka like these are

676
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:40,799
figures that are going to emerge as sort

677
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:43,039
of the intellectual i think front

678
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:44,960
runners in this industry industry in

679
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:46,640
this space it's kind of an industry but

680
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:48,559
definitely in this space

681
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:50,320
this could i uh

682
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:52,400
i'm not too clear on his connections or

683
00:23:57,990 --> 00:23:55,039
backstory i know um when he was on

684
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:58,000
tucker carlson he uh he

685
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,080
told a story where he mentioned the cia

686
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:02,400
approached him with um

687
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:03,919
medical cases and i believe he's

688
00:24:08,549 --> 00:24:05,840
referring to kit green in that instance

689
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:08,559
right and if those are the medical cases

690
00:24:12,149 --> 00:24:10,400
that came out in the dirts uh what was

691
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,159
that like six months ago when all the

692
00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:14,000
headlines were running ufos injure

693
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:14,880
people

694
00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:17,760
uh pentagon study shows um those were

695
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:19,360
really unimpressive

696
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,520
from my recollection

697
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:23,279
and certainly didn't establish any kind

698
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,000
of like causal link between any kind of

699
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:28,480
close encounter and these symptoms

700
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:29,840
so i'm wondering if that's what he's

701
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:32,000
referring to or these are different

702
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:33,120
cases

703
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:34,720
again like

704
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,440
with all these big claimers and these uh

705
00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:39,440
these kind of like figures in ufology

706
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:41,279
it's all a lot of talk about evidence

707
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:43,200
but you never see it

708
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:44,400
so

709
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:46,799
nolan or kit green who like when when

710
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:48,960
they were pushed by jack brewer they

711
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,559
kind of basically said oh this isn't

712
00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:52,559
really evidence for otherworldly

713
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:54,720
activity yeah i think that was kit green

714
00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:56,880
he also um

715
00:25:01,750 --> 00:24:59,360
his his current take at least i think is

716
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:01,760
that um all of those cases in that dirt

717
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,960
were uh

718
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:04,880
from man-made technology i think you

719
00:25:09,909 --> 00:25:06,240
like kind of inferring that it was

720
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:09,919
havana syndrome which is another kind of

721
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:11,440
dubious claim

722
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:13,840
you know there's like one for the other

723
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:16,320
but but again when you have these you

724
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:18,640
have these like brain scans as uh as no

725
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:19,840
one was talking about i don't know if he

726
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:21,279
was just trying to be like

727
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:23,919
illustrative with that um

728
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:25,600
you have these symptoms how are you

729
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:27,760
making that connection

730
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:28,960
you know

731
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:31,760
you have you have claims of course and

732
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:33,200
maybe you're testing it against those

733
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,640
claims i don't know where's the causal

734
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,000
link between like

735
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:38,320
something out of the ordinary and these

736
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:41,120
symptoms are they unique in some way

737
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:42,320
i don't know i don't know if we'll ever

738
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:44,720
see it either

739
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:46,720
there's also an issue about sample size

740
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,159
because

741
00:25:54,390 --> 00:25:51,200
these cases are relatively rare but um

742
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:54,400
so you know to get a good statistical

743
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:56,080
inference about something you need

744
00:26:02,340 --> 00:25:57,760
sufficient sample size or else you can

745
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:07,590
[Laughter]

746
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:10,080
um yeah well and i mean also just even

747
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,120
if we're not going to get into

748
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:13,919
statistical significance um

749
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:17,679
even just having a uh robust

750
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:19,360
framework

751
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,279
to sort of standardize and formalize the

752
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:22,799
study of this subject feels really

753
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:25,520
important right because if we are having

754
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:27,840
these events occur um

755
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:30,240
but we don't have there's basically not

756
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,480
a formalized or i would say

757
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:34,799
scientifically standardized way to

758
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:37,520
approach research um it doesn't matter

759
00:26:41,909 --> 00:26:39,760
how good quote unquote the events are

760
00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:41,919
for demonstrating truth or validity

761
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:44,559
right like like how many times does it

762
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:46,799
something like the aerial phenomenon

763
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:49,600
have to happen before we eventually have

764
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:52,480
standards of evidence or

765
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:56,240
investigation that satisfies any kind of

766
00:27:00,870 --> 00:26:57,440
uh

767
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:00,880
any kind of standard of research

768
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:02,880
i'm no scientist well it's like you're

769
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:04,640
just some dubious layman it's really

770
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:08,960
weird amazing uh title by the way but um

771
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:10,960
there you know there is like published

772
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:13,679
peer-reviewed papers about um

773
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:16,000
mass uh kind of like

774
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:18,720
experiences i i remember there was one

775
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:20,559
that's been published about a school

776
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:22,480
event uh also

777
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:25,120
like in africa where uh dozens of the

778
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:27,279
children start um like vomiting and

779
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:30,880
stuff and uh that ended up being seen as

780
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:32,880
psychosomatic and it's been studied in

781
00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:36,640
depth and dr oberg from nasa did that a

782
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:39,200
major thing with um you know a couple

783
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:41,760
hundred uh people seeing a satellite

784
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:44,720
re-entry event over hawaii and then uh

785
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,080
half of them reported seeing a

786
00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:48,559
structured craft so like like these

787
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:51,840
things are like being studied and

788
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:53,679
i see that they are almost never brought

789
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:56,559
up in the community like okay and i

790
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,240
wish that there would be some um

791
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:00,880
intrinsic motivation to

792
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:04,640
whittle out the like junk from the uh

793
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:08,399
the actual gold right like like why like

794
00:28:12,389 --> 00:28:10,799
like why is it not within the community

795
00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:12,399
if this is the most important subject

796
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:15,279
ever if aliens are here like that's what

797
00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:16,799
i want like i want to know that

798
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,720
sincerely right sometimes i get the

799
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:20,559
sense that that's not like it's it's

800
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:22,159
almost like you don't want to look close

801
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,080
enough because you don't want to

802
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:26,399
resolve the image you know and it's just

803
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:28,559
you know i just saw someone kind of

804
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,000
experiencing that on twitter just a

805
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,880
moment ago uh involving the photograph

806
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:34,240
from the belgian wave you know the

807
00:28:36,149 --> 00:28:35,279
triangle

808
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,159
yes

809
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:38,880
hoaxed um i don't think he was familiar

810
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:40,960
with the the person who confessed that

811
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,320
they hoaxed it and i ended up sharing

812
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,640
the link with him and he was really

813
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:46,399
dubious of it which was i mean it was

814
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:48,480
good he was he was he's like where the

815
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:50,240
sources were pictures of this and stuff

816
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:52,080
like that then he ended up finding them

817
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:53,600
and he's like well it looks like that's

818
00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:55,760
the nail in the coffin unfortunately

819
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:57,279
which one that photo doesn't speak to

820
00:29:01,669 --> 00:28:58,880
the whole case i mean there's there's a

821
00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:01,679
lot more going on with that but no i

822
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:03,919
don't i don't agree um that it's

823
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:06,799
unfortunate at all like i don't

824
00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:08,640
why would i want to continue believing

825
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:10,240
that if that was false

826
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:11,120
right

827
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:12,960
well and i mean i look i think there's

828
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:16,240
lots of compelling arguments to

829
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:17,840
say um

830
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:19,600
expanding or

831
00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:22,000
exploring ways the scientific method can

832
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,799
flex or frame these events that you know

833
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:26,480
that there's ex

834
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:28,000
that there's mysterious things that the

835
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:30,399
human mind does

836
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,200
um qualia or somatic experiences that

837
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:35,360
are currently outside the realm of our

838
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:36,960
capability of measurement or

839
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:38,880
understanding like you can fully

840
00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:40,720
understand and accept and i think it's

841
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:42,559
important to accept that there are

842
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:45,120
mysteries that we encounter as humans

843
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:47,200
all the time um but that doesn't

844
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:49,679
necessarily mean they're attributable to

845
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:52,080
aliens full stop or any sort of

846
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:55,520
extraterrestrial hypothesis um

847
00:29:59,430 --> 00:29:57,120
like to me it almost speaks to like a

848
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:59,440
limitation of imagination right when you

849
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:01,200
think about potential outcomes like it

850
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,760
seems so self-limiting and instead you

851
00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:05,360
know i'm all about sort of being

852
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:07,200
respectful to the power of the mind and

853
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:08,880
the intellect and i think one of the

854
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:10,640
most respectful things you can basically

855
00:30:13,669 --> 00:30:11,360
do

856
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:13,679
is say okay there's huge swaths there's

857
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,720
huge dark spots and human knowledge and

858
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,480
um

859
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:21,039
to do respect to those those

860
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:22,399
dark areas

861
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:25,279
rather than filling it in with you know

862
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:27,840
cultural or social uh

863
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:29,039
debris

864
00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:30,480
instead we have to accept that there are

865
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:32,640
those mysteries that are sort of elusive

866
00:30:36,789 --> 00:30:35,039
or evasive of human uh understanding as

867
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,799
yet right and there also may be things

868
00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:38,399
that frankly we're never going to be

869
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:40,399
able to understand completely you know

870
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:42,399
based on limitations of our senses our

871
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:43,760
abilities to actually measure and

872
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:45,120
understand data

873
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:46,799
and to me being open to that sort of

874
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:49,440
wonder and uh like the numinous is

875
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:52,240
really essential

876
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:54,880
indeed this kind of reminds me of um and

877
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:57,200
we talked about at the top uh kind of

878
00:31:06,549 --> 00:30:58,000
the

879
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:06,559
lot of um

880
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:08,559
i want to use the word since it's so

881
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:10,320
familiar stigma

882
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:13,039
towards people offering up non-uh

883
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:15,039
non-alien or non-us

884
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:16,840
black tech

885
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:18,880
explanations um

886
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:20,320
i

887
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:30,799
um

888
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:33,679
the banner i uh i don't necessarily buy

889
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:36,640
the advertising banner just because that

890
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:38,000
i know it's really blurry and only a

891
00:31:42,050 --> 00:31:39,440
couple pixels but that plane does look

892
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:42,060
like it's either a harrier or a um

893
00:31:44,710 --> 00:31:43,279
[Music]

894
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:44,720
similar plane that they actually did

895
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:46,080
have in that area at the time it was

896
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:48,480
called like a hawk here

897
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:49,760
i'll have to look that up maybe i'll

898
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:52,720
look that up before the next show

899
00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,159
but i don't think they would be towing a

900
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:56,480
um a banner so maybe she better one but

901
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:58,320
like that doesn't

902
00:32:01,190 --> 00:32:00,000
isn't saying anything against the person

903
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:01,200
who put that idea out there it was

904
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,120
really good and they provided a good uh

905
00:32:06,389 --> 00:32:05,120
example video that i noticed earlier on

906
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:06,399
today

907
00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:09,760
but yeah the banner video like i like

908
00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:10,960
that wouldn't make any sense for a

909
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:12,480
banner plane to be in that area at that

910
00:32:15,710 --> 00:32:13,519
time but

911
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:15,720
it's more likely than

912
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:18,159
extraterrestrial vehicle obviously right

913
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,480
and and the banner video and i think

914
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:22,240
it's the top comment under mick west's

915
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:24,080
kite thing it's the video of the plane

916
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:27,760
with the banner it it looks identical it

917
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:29,360
does it blew my mind seeing that i was

918
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:31,519
like that is the calvin photo what the

919
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,440
heck

920
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:35,120
i need to see this video

921
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:37,279
it actually likes to play it yeah yeah

922
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:38,480
you said it wouldn't make sense for it

923
00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:40,880
to be in that area but to be honest we

924
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:42,799
don't know where that picture was taken

925
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:44,960
yeah that's also true as uh anonymous

926
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:46,960
hikers it's so wild i'd love to get into

927
00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:48,640
that

928
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:51,679
the photo released is their photo to be

929
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,519
yeah that's true and uh there's a

930
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:55,200
there's a couple reasons to question

931
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:58,880
that um one is nick pope's uh constant

932
00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:01,039
talking about he always uh

933
00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:02,240
he always mentions you can see the

934
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:04,480
landscape in the background but further

935
00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:07,200
still um and it was in this sun article

936
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:09,039
i think in 2020

937
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:11,279
he mentions that the experts at the mod

938
00:33:15,029 --> 00:33:12,799
who looked at it were able to judge its

939
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:15,039
size by measuring the background in the

940
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:16,320
landscape

941
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:18,080
now that not in this photo at all it's

942
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:19,840
completely white

943
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:22,000
so is this the same photo even i don't

944
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:24,880
know i mean there's a lot of um

945
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,360
questions as to the origins of this

946
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:29,200
photo and the origins of the story

947
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:30,799
itself

948
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,760
so

949
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:34,080
what were left i think at the end of the

950
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,000
day or at least my opinion is it's just

951
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:38,480
an ambiguous photo it looks cool

952
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:40,480
i'll give it that

953
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:42,799
but uh that that's the best that's the

954
00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:45,519
best praise i have for it

955
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,440
certainly not proof of anything

956
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,679
there's um yeah there's so much

957
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:51,840
quantitative information i want before i

958
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:53,760
even start thinking about if i think

959
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,120
this is legit

960
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:57,919
and i bring this up like um

961
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:59,200
you know in a perfect world this would

962
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,720
have been taken on an iphone so there's

963
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,840
all sort of gis metadata right but yeah

964
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:05,440
like when we're talking about analog

965
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,760
cameras used by an amateur

966
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:09,040
like we don't know actually where this

967
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:10,800
was taken they can tell us it was taken

968
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:13,040
anywhere and you just have to assume we

969
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:14,159
also don't know anything about the

970
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:16,480
people who actually took the photos um

971
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,919
you know and i think having them come

972
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:20,159
forward like i hate to be the person to

973
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:21,679
say this but i want to know more about

974
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:23,200
them i want to know you know from the

975
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,720
perspective of a character witness what

976
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:26,480
are these people like what sort of

977
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,800
intentions or objectives would there be

978
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:30,480
um

979
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:33,040
you know i i would want sort of more i

980
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,280
guess social context before even

981
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:37,359
starting to approach what do i actually

982
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,839
think this is a photo of right

983
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:41,679
so there's a little bit of speculation

984
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:43,040
but i think what was known as they

985
00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:44,960
worked at a hotel they were both chefs

986
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:47,839
at a hotel that's dr david clarke's work

987
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:48,960
yes

988
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:52,000
i recommend looking at that um they went

989
00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:53,919
on i think they they claimed they drove

990
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:56,480
13 miles and then went on a another

991
00:35:01,829 --> 00:34:59,440
walk after a long day of work at 9pm

992
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:01,839
there's some yeah which is odd but

993
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:03,680
whatever to each their own there were

994
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:05,359
some rumors about they may have been

995
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:08,160
poachers so maybe that odd behavior kind

996
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:11,040
of lends itself to that i don't know

997
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:12,800
um and then there's there's a little bit

998
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:14,480
of discrepancy on whether they heard a

999
00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:16,960
sound or not some accounts say that they

1000
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:19,280
heard a hum um while others say that

1001
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:22,240
there was no sound yeah um

1002
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:24,560
gosh what else

1003
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:26,640
there's so little known about this and

1004
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,480
uh including how david clark met um

1005
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:32,240
the guy who gave him the picture what

1006
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,320
was his name um i mean

1007
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:38,160
i'm sorry what was his name craig

1008
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:41,119
lindsey is the uh he was a former press

1009
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:44,400
officer i think for the mod um and he's

1010
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,520
the guy who's who stashed a print and

1011
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:50,160
stole it oh right in his like aircrafts

1012
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:52,240
of the world coffee table book and he

1013
00:35:56,950 --> 00:35:54,400
was just waiting 30 plus years for

1014
00:35:59,109 --> 00:35:56,960
someone to come ask him for it which is

1015
00:36:00,550 --> 00:35:59,119
also mind-blowing in and of itself right

1016
00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:00,560
that he wasn't holding on to this and

1017
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:01,760
then trying to

1018
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:03,359
i don't know distribute it someplace or

1019
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:04,960
share it with other people

1020
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:07,359
right but i mean

1021
00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:09,599
all the information that came from him

1022
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,320
um was known information you know he

1023
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:14,560
said a story where they turned it into

1024
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:16,720
that newspaper and then the newspaper

1025
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:18,400
turned it into the mod and then he

1026
00:36:21,829 --> 00:36:20,400
talked about going into the mod office

1027
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:21,839
and seeing it up on the wall which has

1028
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:25,280
been known since what in 1996 from nick

1029
00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:26,400
pope's book

1030
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:28,240
open skies closed minds which is an

1031
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:30,880
awesome title yeah that's pretty good

1032
00:36:34,390 --> 00:36:32,320
um

1033
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,400
so it is all known information so he

1034
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:36,720
could have just been aware of this story

1035
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:39,119
and recreated this

1036
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,720
that sounds like i'm accusing the guy we

1037
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:42,240
just don't know though i'm illustrating

1038
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:44,400
that we don't know we have so little

1039
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:46,480
information on a photo that

1040
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:49,280
really doesn't i mean it looks odd

1041
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:51,200
um but it doesn't look like anything i

1042
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:52,640
know people are trying to use ai to

1043
00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:54,560
upscale it and it's just

1044
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:55,680
really

1045
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:59,040
like enhancements like there's nothing

1046
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:59,839
there

1047
00:37:03,589 --> 00:37:01,599
yeah well and also like it's another

1048
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:03,599
perfect example of like the common man's

1049
00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:05,920
misunderstanding of what ai can do right

1050
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:08,079
computer vision is fairly powerful but

1051
00:37:13,589 --> 00:37:10,960
it's not going to interpolate from like

1052
00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:13,599
an analog high loss or high latency

1053
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:15,440
image like what was actually going on

1054
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:17,040
here it's not going to read the akashic

1055
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:18,720
fields right and that's what it sort of

1056
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:21,200
feels like people are trying to do we we

1057
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:24,000
also actually don't know um if negatives

1058
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:26,880
were provided to either the newspaper or

1059
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:31,440
to the mod sure um we don't know why

1060
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:33,520
that newspaper didn't publish it there's

1061
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:34,960
a rumor that there was what's it called

1062
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:36,400
a d notice

1063
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:38,880
i think uh dr clark actually i i was

1064
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:40,480
reading about this earlier today uh i

1065
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:43,520
could get into it um dr clark was saying

1066
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,760
it's a very interesting uh coincidence

1067
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:47,760
where the the lead editor of the

1068
00:37:52,950 --> 00:37:51,119
newspaper uh yeah the daily uh record i

1069
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:52,960
believe right it's the evening newspaper

1070
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:55,440
the like a high standing uh newspaper

1071
00:37:59,510 --> 00:37:57,359
but the main editor was on vacation at

1072
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:59,520
the time the photos were received and so

1073
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:01,520
they went to the photo editor

1074
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,920
and apparently for unknown reasons the

1075
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:06,000
photo editor did not tell anybody else

1076
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:07,599
that the photos had been received by the

1077
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:09,680
newspaper and sent them immediately to

1078
00:38:13,109 --> 00:38:11,680
the ministry of defense and something

1079
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:13,119
quite interesting is that the lead

1080
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:14,160
editor

1081
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:19,280
on that newspaper was on the board

1082
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:23,440
responsible for applying the uh the

1083
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,960
ministry of defense gag orders you just

1084
00:38:28,550 --> 00:38:26,000
referenced

1085
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:28,560
no really yes so he was involved in the

1086
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:32,480
application of those laws that require

1087
00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:35,200
newspapers to not print like sensitive

1088
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:37,119
things so there's a lot of weird stuff

1089
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:39,119
going on in the background brigadier

1090
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:40,560
jeffrey dads is that who you're talking

1091
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:42,079
about

1092
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:44,079
the uh i don't know there's so many

1093
00:38:48,150 --> 00:38:46,400
names i'll get the i'll get the articles

1094
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:48,160
from dr david clarke added to the show

1095
00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:49,359
description once we're finished yeah

1096
00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:51,200
they're really great and they're um

1097
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:52,640
there's a number of them but it goes

1098
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:54,640
into it it's a really cool story the

1099
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:56,240
whole thing is a really cool story i

1100
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:57,200
like it

1101
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:00,320
um but i i know i was hoping you would

1102
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,960
mention this as um there was

1103
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:04,880
there was one secretary who said oh no

1104
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:07,200
there were no d noticed administered at

1105
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,160
the time

1106
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:10,079
however if you look in the condyne

1107
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:11,359
report which is what i was hoping you

1108
00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:12,320
were going to get i think you're the

1109
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:15,359
only person i know who's read it um

1110
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:17,599
there is a mention of a

1111
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:19,599
d notice being out around the time there

1112
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:22,240
was also um kind of like a news flurry

1113
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,200
about

1114
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:26,240
the the american secret aurora project

1115
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:28,320
going on right around the same time and

1116
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:30,079
the gulf war started just two days

1117
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:32,079
earlier right yeah

1118
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,599
so

1119
00:39:37,349 --> 00:39:35,760
that stuff was on people's minds at the

1120
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:37,359
time for sure

1121
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:38,720
i don't know

1122
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:41,040
it was in the popular imagination

1123
00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:42,720
yep so

1124
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:45,040
we we got a new piece to this puzzle of

1125
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:47,040
this condyne case but like really

1126
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:48,240
there's not enough information to

1127
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:49,920
discern anything

1128
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:52,000
uh that i'm aware of

1129
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:54,000
how come the the negatives always go

1130
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:55,280
missing

1131
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:56,880
i don't know right

1132
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,119
dude i i'm like i always want to rage

1133
00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:00,960
about how every single picture is bad

1134
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:02,800
why is every single picture bad why does

1135
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,960
it look like a copy of a copy of a copy

1136
00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:06,880
again this is all about doing respect to

1137
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:09,280
the subject and as a result holding high

1138
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:11,700
standards of evidence you know full stop

1139
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:12,960
[Music]

1140
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:15,440
yeah i am i mean my sort of knee jerk

1141
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:17,599
here like what makes it compelling for

1142
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,520
me to not have been a plain water

1143
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:21,359
reflection is just like the general

1144
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:23,359
geometry and framing of the objects in

1145
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,280
the picture um like i think it would

1146
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:27,680
just be like an awkward way to use a

1147
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:29,599
point-and-shoot camera based on sort of

1148
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:31,839
the topography and contortion required i

1149
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:33,040
think you could do it like i think you

1150
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:35,040
could absolutely recreate this photo on

1151
00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:37,280
a glassy pond with a rock

1152
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:38,880
but the other thing is that seeing the

1153
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:41,280
harrier jet in it and sort of that seems

1154
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:42,800
to be a part of the photograph that's

1155
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:44,480
not in dispute in any meaningful sense

1156
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:45,920
people seem to generally recognize that

1157
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:49,359
this was a plane in the picture

1158
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:51,280
that to me

1159
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:53,839
i'm not saying it's aliens but i am

1160
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,560
saying that that those two things in my

1161
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,800
mental model of this

1162
00:41:02,069 --> 00:41:00,560
uh make it feel like it's probably not a

1163
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:02,079
water reflection

1164
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:04,079
yeah the plane

1165
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:06,640
looks like it it's right side up in the

1166
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:08,880
reflection right so that does kind of

1167
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,400
call into question

1168
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:12,000
whether or not it was referred to like i

1169
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:13,520
thought that was the best-looking one i

1170
00:41:18,069 --> 00:41:14,960
showed the um

1171
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:18,079
i showed the photo to my wife

1172
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:20,000
really quickly i said hey what's this

1173
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:21,920
she's like that's an island

1174
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,440
but wow nice

1175
00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:25,680
yeah that's cool

1176
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:27,200
yeah i don't know

1177
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:29,280
i mean people are picking it apart as we

1178
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:31,599
speak and will continue to especially on

1179
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:32,720
metabunk

1180
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:35,599
so um if there is anything to discover

1181
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:37,440
from that photo i'm sure they will find

1182
00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:38,880
it and post it

1183
00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:39,920
but

1184
00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:43,440
as for me i'm no photo analyst um

1185
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:45,920
but i don't need to be yet because like

1186
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:47,040
i was saying we don't have enough

1187
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,720
information on this case anyway to draw

1188
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:50,880
any like real conclusions

1189
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:54,400
yeah that would make a good poster

1190
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:56,079
that's like that if i want to believe

1191
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:57,440
not enough men to be in restricted

1192
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:00,000
airspace is that right

1193
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:02,000
and that's why it was deemed like that

1194
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:03,440
it couldn't have been an ad banner

1195
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:05,119
because um okay

1196
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:07,680
of that is that is that correct i'm not

1197
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,599
familiar with that it's because it's not

1198
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,200
even yeah that's i think nick mentioned

1199
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,040
like we don't like it's been proposed

1200
00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:15,119
the location uh like i think it was the

1201
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:17,119
daily mail went out and tried to find it

1202
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,280
but like it's not verified possible that

1203
00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:21,440
that's why it was

1204
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:23,599
declassified or that it was deemed

1205
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:25,520
extraordinary because maybe it was an ad

1206
00:42:28,870 --> 00:42:27,119
plane that wandered into restricted

1207
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:28,880
airspace and then

1208
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:30,560
that's why

1209
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:33,040
interesting it also could have been like

1210
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:34,960
kept secret because some people did

1211
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,280
think it was compelling i mean like

1212
00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:39,680
look at look at the the bokeh video you

1213
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:42,640
know what i mean i i don't think um any

1214
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:44,960
intelligence agency like as i'm as a

1215
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:47,040
monolith i think david clark kind of

1216
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:48,880
wrote it this way is

1217
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:51,280
too clever to not be fooled

1218
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:52,560
you know i don't think any group of

1219
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:55,040
people are too clever to not be fooled

1220
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:56,880
permanently you know what i mean maybe

1221
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:00,240
people did think um and there was uh he

1222
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:02,880
he spoke to this in his article

1223
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,480
maybe those people did think it was an

1224
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:06,000
american plane

1225
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,760
you know like all right well let's keep

1226
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:09,119
this quiet

1227
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:10,560
because they just didn't know it does

1228
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:11,760
look weird

1229
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:13,440
it does look like something is hanging

1230
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:15,520
there in the air so maybe they just

1231
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,720
presumed

1232
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:18,480
well and this is something that i think

1233
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:20,319
is actually pretty neat and like we

1234
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:22,160
could probably dive into a little bit is

1235
00:43:25,829 --> 00:43:24,640
the background work that dr clark has

1236
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:25,839
done on this because you know he's like

1237
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:28,560
an associate professor at uh sheffield

1238
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,240
hallam university he's been a journalist

1239
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:32,560
for 30 years he's like an excellent

1240
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:34,640
researcher and academic

1241
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:36,480
scholar and he's done in

1242
00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:38,560
you know the national archives hired him

1243
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:41,680
to be in charge of distributing all of

1244
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:43,839
their most classified ufo files because

1245
00:43:49,030 --> 00:43:46,079
he was filing all the he's the one who

1246
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:49,040
got yeah condone report declassified

1247
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:50,480
right the one who had it in his hands

1248
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:52,480
for the first time because he filed it

1249
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,400
um and like you know

1250
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:56,480
his theory is that it's some kind of

1251
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:59,680
american um aircraft like a super secret

1252
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:01,200
aircraft i don't

1253
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:03,359
you know i don't think that's correct

1254
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:05,200
myself but i can't say he knows a lot

1255
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:07,119
more than i do but i don't necessarily

1256
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:08,400
defer to that but

1257
00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:10,400
his reasoning he originally said i think

1258
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:12,240
this photo's a hoax i think it's just a

1259
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,720
trash photo and then his opinion changed

1260
00:44:19,109 --> 00:44:16,880
as he got more declassified documents

1261
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:19,119
specifically in 2009 he got a huge trove

1262
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:22,000
of actual declassified internal memos

1263
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,599
showing that the ministry of defense

1264
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:25,680
took this photo very seriously yeah they

1265
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:28,240
started contacting the cia asking the

1266
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:30,079
cia it's like are you guys flying your

1267
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:32,480
stuff in our airspace and then the cia

1268
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:33,599
says no

1269
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:35,599
and then they go in and the defense

1270
00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:37,200
intelligence agencies

1271
00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:38,800
sending the photo to the pentagon and

1272
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:40,800
then the pentagon goes back to the

1273
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:43,040
ministry of defense and they're like did

1274
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:45,680
you guys build a secret aircraft using

1275
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:47,760
the technology sharing system that we

1276
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:49,680
put in with you because what is this

1277
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:52,000
thing that you guys are photographing so

1278
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:54,480
and that correspondence where the

1279
00:44:57,829 --> 00:44:56,319
intelligence agencies may be in behind

1280
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:57,839
the scenes are like what the heck is

1281
00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:59,520
this thing why is it in our airspace why

1282
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:01,119
is it in your airspace what is it that's

1283
00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:03,440
what he said convinced him that it

1284
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:05,599
actually was some kind of physical craft

1285
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:08,160
because of that context but once again

1286
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,240
with all these videos like um like mick

1287
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:12,480
west uh points out like if you strip

1288
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:14,240
away the context and you only look at

1289
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:16,160
the images themselves usually they

1290
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:18,000
they're just like worthless right so so

1291
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:19,520
it is like context does matter but at

1292
00:45:23,109 --> 00:45:21,280
the same time you can't lean on the

1293
00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:23,119
context either so then you are left with

1294
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:25,280
just like well it's a neat story i'll

1295
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:27,040
know the next one i guess like

1296
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,359
right yeah lucas by the way is saying

1297
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:30,960
that um the negatives were returned to

1298
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:33,839
the newspaper yes and they got lost in

1299
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:36,000
transition and some accounts

1300
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:38,079
don't mention the negatives there's a

1301
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:39,680
lot of murky water

1302
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:41,599
involved with the whole story

1303
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:42,960
so

1304
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:44,400
one of the things i did want to chime in

1305
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:46,720
about is sort of the providence of these

1306
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:49,280
photos or the chain of custody right and

1307
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:50,960
so what and i'm going to tell a little

1308
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:53,440
story so in another life like my actual

1309
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:55,440
education is being a rare book and

1310
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:57,520
manuscript librarian

1311
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:58,960
and

1312
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:00,800
every couple years

1313
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:03,520
you read a news news story about how a

1314
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:05,680
shakespeare's first folio will be found

1315
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:07,680
someplace and it'll be found in like

1316
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,480
some ancillary library facility of

1317
00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:13,359
oxford or cambridge or yale even though

1318
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:15,119
uh scholars have sworn up and down that

1319
00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:17,359
there's only say 40 extant copies every

1320
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:19,280
now and then one will turn up

1321
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:21,440
and i mention this uh to make a point

1322
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:22,960
which is that

1323
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:25,040
archives in general particularly

1324
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:26,319
archives that deal with special

1325
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:28,720
collections so things like

1326
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:31,119
rich media audio recordings videos

1327
00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:33,280
artifacts of different kinds the

1328
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,520
backlogs at these institutions for

1329
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:37,280
finding locating and indexing these

1330
00:46:42,309 --> 00:46:39,359
materials are astounding

1331
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:42,319
like they're multi-multi-years long and

1332
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:44,160
very frequently when these archives and

1333
00:46:47,670 --> 00:46:45,599
collections were being built there

1334
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:47,680
simply weren't the systems to aggregate

1335
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:49,599
and integrate different metadata and

1336
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:51,280
information about the products so for

1337
00:46:55,910 --> 00:46:53,440
instance you know the the vatican

1338
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:55,920
library i guarantee you that they

1339
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:58,319
regularly find things there that are

1340
00:47:01,910 --> 00:47:00,000
extremely important to the study of

1341
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,920
religious history but they weren't like

1342
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:03,520
actually indexed in a searchable

1343
00:47:08,069 --> 00:47:05,680
database so it happened because you know

1344
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:08,079
father jose from mexico city came and

1345
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:09,760
visited and happened to stumble upon it

1346
00:47:13,829 --> 00:47:12,160
while doing his phd um

1347
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:13,839
did i bring that up just to kind of make

1348
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:15,680
a point that there's nothing sort of

1349
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:17,920
mysterious or strange about these the

1350
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,680
provenance of these photos being kind of

1351
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,280
murky or not well understood because

1352
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:23,520
this is very very much what you see with

1353
00:47:26,549 --> 00:47:25,280
these kinds of artifacts at all

1354
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:26,559
different institutions whether

1355
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:28,559
governmental like library of congress

1356
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:31,440
academic religious whatever this is very

1357
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:37,589
well that's a very good point i think um

1358
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:41,520
have any of you um watched uh dr clark's

1359
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:44,000
uh interviews on um vinnie's like

1360
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:46,800
disclosure team's uh channel um at this

1361
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,359
point no okay i'll just say right now i

1362
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:51,119
just recommend those three interviews

1363
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:52,559
because he actually covers a lot of this

1364
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:54,880
stuff and it's a good way like instead

1365
00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:56,079
of going through all the pages of his

1366
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:57,599
blogs and he's got like a couple blogs

1367
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:59,359
scattered all over the place dr clark

1368
00:48:01,750 --> 00:48:00,240
and like

1369
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,760
some of them are quite old and stuff so

1370
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:03,119
like he goes through stuff very

1371
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,960
effectively in the calvin uh interview

1372
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:08,800
yeah i really liked reading his blogs

1373
00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:11,040
earlier today to kind of like

1374
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:13,680
get the story better um in preparation

1375
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:15,440
for this in the next show

1376
00:48:18,790 --> 00:48:17,280
but yeah man there's a there's a lot of

1377
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,800
different trails and a lot of sources to

1378
00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:20,720
click on i had a full browser of tabs

1379
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:22,160
while i was done

1380
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:25,280
so there's so a video would be would be

1381
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:27,520
pretty uh ideal

1382
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,440
one of the projects and this is just to

1383
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:31,359
go totally off the branch here about the

1384
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:33,200
calvin ufo one of the things i keep

1385
00:48:35,910 --> 00:48:34,559
coming back to that we could do is

1386
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:35,920
basically build a collaborative

1387
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:37,680
knowledge database using something like

1388
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:40,319
notion or rome um because all of us are

1389
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:42,160
going down our little rabbit holes and

1390
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:44,000
being able to surface resources that

1391
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:45,680
we've found helpful i think will help

1392
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:47,680
sort of weave together

1393
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:49,440
like pretty sophisticated narratives

1394
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:51,680
about different spaces and events um so

1395
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:52,880
that's something i'm definitely going to

1396
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:55,760
look into uh into for us to start doing

1397
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,150
i think i what i keep coming back to

1398
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:03,520
about this photo too is um you know

1399
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:05,920
again not having personal opinions on it

1400
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:06,640
but

1401
00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:08,559
it's fascinating to watch

1402
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:09,920
um

1403
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:12,240
emergent reality building in the

1404
00:49:16,950 --> 00:49:14,400
community around this photo like how

1405
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:16,960
it's already being mythologized

1406
00:49:19,589 --> 00:49:18,000
um

1407
00:49:21,270 --> 00:49:19,599
particularly because it's a photo that

1408
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:21,280
was taken quite a while ago you know

1409
00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:23,839
we're talking 30 years

1410
00:49:28,829 --> 00:49:26,000
and it is already and continually

1411
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:28,839
sparking pretty in-depth conversation

1412
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:32,400
uh that are is over pretty well trot and

1413
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:33,680
familiar ground right like the

1414
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:35,119
conversations we're having now i mean

1415
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:37,040
time is a flat circle same conversations

1416
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:38,160
that have been had about these kinds of

1417
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:40,319
photos since time immemorial but it's

1418
00:49:44,069 --> 00:49:42,000
really it's really interesting sort of

1419
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:44,079
watching this collaborative like i would

1420
00:49:48,349 --> 00:49:46,160
say mythology come together or be knit

1421
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:48,359
together and into the sort of collected

1422
00:49:56,549 --> 00:49:55,109
yeah it is really cool i i like the case

1423
00:49:58,870 --> 00:49:56,559
you know what i mean

1424
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:58,880
it's a fun one i'm into it it is yeah

1425
00:50:02,790 --> 00:50:00,640
there's a lot going on with it we don't

1426
00:50:04,950 --> 00:50:02,800
have there's a lot of uh ambiguity a lot

1427
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:04,960
of spaces to you know further research

1428
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:07,119
and explore yes it's super compelling

1429
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:07,920
it's definitely one of the more

1430
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:09,599
compelling ones in the last few years

1431
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:12,480
yeah yeah it reminds me of that case

1432
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,720
that valet is really into the one over

1433
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:16,400
costa rica i think

1434
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:18,880
or puerto rico like it's it's got like a

1435
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:21,440
circular ufo and it was

1436
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:22,640
do you know the one it was like a

1437
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:24,240
photograph by

1438
00:50:29,829 --> 00:50:26,960
uh aerial

1439
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:29,839
geography aircraft or something oh yeah

1440
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:32,000
the one that uh leslie uh kane has on

1441
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,559
the wall of yeah yes yes right

1442
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:36,319
i think valet is still vlogging that

1443
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:38,319
case but um

1444
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:40,079
it's on metabunk but it's got that same

1445
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:42,240
sort of similar social dynamic where

1446
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:44,319
people are saying oh this is it this is

1447
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:46,000
definitely

1448
00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:50,880
you know a ufo uh flying saucer but um

1449
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:52,400
it could have been like some defect in

1450
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:53,760
the camera or something like these

1451
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,760
different explanations but right um it

1452
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:57,440
sort of reminds me that's sort of like a

1453
00:51:01,589 --> 00:50:59,040
pre um

1454
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:01,599
precedent for this current case i think

1455
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:03,760
in terms of like how people

1456
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,040
latch on meanings and stuff to it

1457
00:51:11,109 --> 00:51:09,119
right it's the rorschach test

1458
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:11,119
yeah

1459
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:12,400
well and it's like there's there's

1460
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:13,760
always gonna be

1461
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:15,760
a more plausible

1462
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:17,440
explanation than

1463
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,240
oh it's a uh i think if you actually

1464
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:22,000
contextualize the size of that one from

1465
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:23,359
costa rica it would have to be like a

1466
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:25,200
kilometer wide if it's actually where

1467
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:27,280
the people are saying they think it is

1468
00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:29,200
and it's like and then it's not in the

1469
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:31,040
next frame that was taken like you know

1470
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:33,040
whatever 30 seconds later and stuff so

1471
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:34,079
it's like

1472
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:38,400
yeah also matches the damage from a uh

1473
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:41,839
lens chip or whatever and it's like

1474
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:43,440
like what are what are we doing here

1475
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:44,640
right like it's like it's like with the

1476
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:46,240
kelvin photo like

1477
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:48,000
the entire thing

1478
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,599
is conditional on did the people who

1479
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:52,800
sent it in

1480
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:55,119
actually hoax it or not and it's

1481
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:56,720
entirely conditional on that because we

1482
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:58,000
have no idea so that's all these things

1483
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:00,240
with the pond reflection stuff mick west

1484
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:02,400
posting showing that it's viable that

1485
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,800
that could be the explanation

1486
00:52:08,950 --> 00:52:06,480
and it's like the thing that is really

1487
00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:08,960
cool to me is that what we have from dr

1488
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:10,480
clark's re

1489
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:14,079
foia work is that we see that internally

1490
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:16,079
these agencies as intelligence agencies

1491
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:19,200
thought that it was like a legit crap

1492
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:21,920
and that is wild if it's very compelling

1493
00:52:25,910 --> 00:52:24,480
well within like 12 hours we have well

1494
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:25,920
less than that within what like two

1495
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:27,920
hours we have like 10 different people

1496
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:30,000
presenting plausible alternatives but

1497
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:32,400
then in the top levels of the

1498
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:34,960
intelligence ins you know infrastructure

1499
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:37,920
inter uh national they're pointing

1500
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:39,200
fingers at each other being like is this

1501
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:42,000
yours is this yours it's like if this is

1502
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:44,960
just a puddle reflection like that is

1503
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:48,960
something fascinating i agree right

1504
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,960
now figure out the bokeh video it was

1505
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,720
like a day or two

1506
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:54,079
right and then that video was in

1507
00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:56,240
contention for so long until i think

1508
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:58,240
that most recent congressional hearing

1509
00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:00,400
where they kind of admitted it i mean

1510
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:01,920
people are still clinging onto the green

1511
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:03,760
pyramids you actually just reminded me

1512
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:06,400
something uh okay mick west his his

1513
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:09,520
claim to fame was originally the video

1514
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,319
from that military helicopter in costa

1515
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:14,319
rica do you guys remember this the uh

1516
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:16,960
that looked like it was spewing like a

1517
00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:18,880
contrail or whatever

1518
00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:21,440
and they studied it for what was it two

1519
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:23,680
years the intelligence agencies and said

1520
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:25,280
like this seems like a genuine ufo we

1521
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:26,720
can't we ruled everything out we can't

1522
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,160
figure it and then make west like what

1523
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:30,400
was it like in 24 hours had determined

1524
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:34,240
the exact plane that it was on the uh

1525
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,160
you know incoming

1526
00:53:40,549 --> 00:53:38,079
and it's just like these mistakes happen

1527
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:40,559
at the top levels and that needs to be

1528
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:42,319
factored into this consideration so that

1529
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:45,359
we can like take the subject seriously

1530
00:53:50,470 --> 00:53:48,000
wonderful i agree all right gentlemen

1531
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,480
this has been a pleasure especially for

1532
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:52,079
our first conversation

1533
00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:54,240
we're going to wrap things up before we

1534
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:56,079
do a quick round table what do people

1535
00:54:01,670 --> 00:53:58,400
have going on

1536
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,990
it's classified i can't tell you

1537
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:08,470
um i'm working i'm working a little more

1538
00:54:12,549 --> 00:54:11,119
on the lake michigan 94 case like i

1539
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:12,559
always am kind of in the background i

1540
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:15,119
just spoke to one of the uh the primary

1541
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:16,800
on the ground witnesses a couple days

1542
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:19,440
ago and i plan to continue communicating

1543
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:21,599
with her she helped me find a couple of

1544
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:22,480
um

1545
00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:27,839
have a collection of michael swords

1546
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:29,680
notes professor michael swords's uh

1547
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:31,920
notes from the time of the investigation

1548
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:34,559
nicely interesting to go over i i detect

1549
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:36,640
a bit of bias in his writing i kind of

1550
00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:38,799
want to highlight that in the future

1551
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:40,160
i like the dude

1552
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:42,319
but um

1553
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:43,440
that we see this case a little

1554
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:44,559
differently

1555
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:45,520
yeah

1556
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:47,119
what about you campbell

1557
00:54:53,750 --> 00:54:50,559
yep i'm uh in the process of trying to

1558
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:53,760
update my website because uh i've gotten

1559
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:55,680
a bit of feedback recently from some

1560
00:54:59,589 --> 00:54:57,680
experiencer friends i've made saying

1561
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,599
that they dislike certain parts of it

1562
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:01,440
they feel that it comes off as a little

1563
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:02,720
bit too

1564
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:04,960
confrontational or biased and you know

1565
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:06,720
obviously i don't necessarily agree that

1566
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:09,200
it's biased but i am listening to their

1567
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:11,040
feedback and i'm making some changes so

1568
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,680
that's what i've been working on

1569
00:55:16,870 --> 00:55:15,119
i'm actually

1570
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:16,880
sorry i was joking about classified but

1571
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:21,430
um

1572
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:23,760
i'm just delving deeper into the link

1573
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,720
between consciousness and um

1574
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:28,799
ufos

1575
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:30,000
fantastic

1576
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:31,920
good cool

1577
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:33,520
great we've got a couple minutes and we

1578
00:55:37,829 --> 00:55:35,680
have a live stream on another channel

1579
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:37,839
yes we're joining uh identified

1580
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:40,000
unidentified celebrity review uh to

1581
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:42,799
discuss the calvine ufo photo

1582
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:44,400
just like to remind everyone to please

1583
00:55:48,069 --> 00:55:46,480
like share and subscribe help our

1584
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:48,079
channel grow we'll be doing these live

1585
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:50,559
streams uh definitely in the future you

1586
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:52,000
can also find us on twitter and our

1587
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:54,240
twitter spaces and finally feel free to

1588
00:55:58,950 --> 00:55:56,079
join us on our public discord the link